goth music in the goth scene

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i was just wondering if you think that the "goth" genre of music is the music of "goths" . .... i mean i've run into some zealot goth pride folk who think anything not "goth" makes you a poser goth.....i mself stay away from labels but i mean when i've talked about some of my 70's punk rock bands i love they let lose .... :-/ so is someone of the goth scene boxed by goth music? i believe they shouldn't be but i've had some conflict with that idea so........

i like lots of music...hooray...

jazz, cabaret, traditional eastern,trip-hop ...

i'm so open-minded somebody give me a medal,

i like a variety , just like EVERYONE else

what's a little more rare is that i actually give a shit about gothic music

lots made after 2000, by talented people, under 30

humble death-rock is so big it has festivals!

it's not a box,

from neo-folk to darkwave, ethereal to younameit...

and yes, it celebrates tons of music outside of itself, (psychobilly, synthpop, the cure..)

the scene is world-wide, diverse,

and absolutely non-existent here.


i don't mean the fashion scene, we still like to look the part.

i jus mean gothic metal is not a soprano vocal and a keyboard! when the ppl hear a melodic keys and a female vocal sings la la la , they say yes what a goth sound! that's jus a bullshit... ok ,maybe you can say there is smth called gothic metal but be carefull, for what you use this words !

I knew that.   :P

Then again, I used to study etymology and the like, so I have an unfair advantage.   ;D

Very well put, Atratus.(ok)

*sigh* ...time for etymology lesson:

Goth was the name of a Scandinavian tribe that descended at some undetermined time before the 1st century BC into the area that is now the Ukraine and Galatia (And it amuses me to no end that I happen to be descended from these people, BTW. My father's family comes from the Carpathian mountiains north of Transylvania that is now the western most end of the Ukraine, but at the time they left was part of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire.).

In the latter years of the Roman Empire, factions of this group, the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths invaded an colonised a great deal of Roman territory ranging from what is now Romainia to Northern Spain. Their invasions were not exactly a "civilising" force and little things like cutting off the left arms of slain enemies and hanging them in trees as offerings to the one-armed war god Tiw (from which the word "Tuesday" comes, incidentally) earned them a bit of a bad reputation in Italy, where "Goth" became synonymous with "barbarian".

Some centuries later when Classically-based Romanesque basilica architecture was giving way to a new form with pointed arches and flying buttresses in parts of Germany and Northern France, conservatives in Italy considered the new architectural style gaudy and barbaric, and called it Gothic. If it seems odd that the bad rap aquired by the Goth should have persisted for centuries after the fall of Rome, consider another tribe whose bad repuation persists in the language today, the Vandals. Nearly two thousand years have gone by and their name is still synonymous with ruining things.

A few more centuries pass, and the term Gothic came not only to apply to the particular type of architecture it was applied to as a term of derision, but to the entire period said architecture was at its height. A this point "Gothic" comes to mean anything to do with the late Mediæval period. Not only is there Gothic architecture, but Gothic art, Gothic castles (which almost never exhibit the characteristics of Gothic church architecture since it is inappropriate to fortifications) -- even Gothic music and Gothic fashion. Gregorian chants are "Gothic music" in this sense of the term.

In the 19th century a branch of Romantic literature emerged that was typically set in buildings from the Gothic period - The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Frankenstein, and Dracula to name three of the most well known. So, because of their setting, the genre got called "Gothic literature". Because of the thematic content of the same stories this got the term Gothic associated with horror.

Another century goes by and along comes a post-punk musical genre with a moody sound and bleak lyrics skirting around or even, in the case of "Bela Lugosi's dead" directly referencing Gothic horror literature. At first the music press calls it things like "gloom punk", "death rock" and finally settles on "Gothic rock".

So, yes, you can have "Gothic metal" - i.e. metal that references themes relating to Gothic literature. It doesn't necessarily mean it is derived or even related to Gothic rock or other Gothically inspired genres. And in the contemporary sense being a goth has equally as much to do with enjoying the sorts of imagery and style evocative of Gothic literature as with enjoying the music that is inspired by those same themes.

For that matter, the only thing really "gothic" is architecture, or other such things pertaining to that particular period of time. Being a "goth" doesn't really mean anything either. Unless you're a germanic barbarian from the era following the fall of the roman empire. And I doubt they had time machines that would allow you to travel to the present back then. nor would they have really cared about "metal" or "electronica".

BAH! I don't think I really had a point. I just really really hate this word.

Too many labels kill the vibe. Its hard enough to label a person as a goth correctly, labeling music is such a sketchy business. And electronica in any way shape or form has very little to do with punk in it's orrigional form, so why shouldn't there be 'goth metal', music is all about theme and veriation, not labels.

i jus wanna say that there cant be no genre called ''gothic metal''.... gothic music has nothing abt metal music... and it's imposible to put them together... disgusting to think ...  the origin of goth music is punk music!.. and it's fractions are industrial gothic,goth/rock,goth/punk, and electro/gothic... the best is electro/goth for me... pls dont let anyone talk about gothik metal cus it can only be a ignorant speech

I also don't think it helps that there's all these sub-genres out there.  Let's see gothic, gothic rock, post punk, death rock, industrial, ebm, gothic industrial, techno-industrial, darkwave, coldwave, synthpop, futurepop, ethereal, and so on...

Some even lump certain metal bands into what's called gothic, and vice versa.  For example Lacrimosa (or HIM) being considered gothic, or the fact you can usually find Christian Death lumped into the metal section of a music store.

Lacrimosa actually started out as gothic. Then Thilo came across some severe metal influence (while never actually crossing over) and now they are often labeled as "neo-classic".

If we wanted to do some real hairsplitting, we would call the whole thing by a different name. "Dark Scene/Movement" has been introduced to cover up everything.

I like what i like, and I'll let someone else pigeonhole it if they need be.

Sure, 90% of my playlist is probably "gothic, industrial, darkwave whatever the hell"  but I also am a huge fan of Daniel Lanois, who is considered "folk". ( but the lyrics are so dark!)

I also don't think it helps that there's all these sub-genres out there.  Let's see gothic, gothic rock, post punk, death rock, industrial, ebm, gothic industrial, techno-industrial, darkwave, coldwave, synthpop, futurepop, ethereal, and so on...

Some even lump certain metal bands into what's called gothic, and vice versa.  For example Lacrimosa (or HIM) being considered gothic, or the fact you can usually find Christian Death lumped into the metal section of a music store.

And given that I really like Morrissey and the Smiths, it really says a lot about how whiney something has to be before it annoys me.  ;)

But really, pulling it back in to "Goth" music, how much of what is called "Goth" really isn't, like Industrial, EBM, and synthpop for example. Take "And One" for a specific example: Panzermensch was a big club hit in the goth scene a couple years back, and I liked it as much as anyone else and thoroughly enjoyed seeing them live, but I would call it "goth". Just about the only song they do that I would consider in the goth genre would be "Driving with My Darling".

And One, Laibach, Wupscut, NI?, Marilyn Manson: all not goth , but all with lots of goth fans.

Black Tape for a Blue Girl, Faith and the Muse, Collide, Jennifer MacLaren, Crüxshadows, Bauhaus, SoM: goth.

Siouxsie, the Cure: had some landmark goth albums, but the bulk of their music isn't really goth.

Then there are bands like the Big John Bates and the Voodoo Dolls, Cramps, Alien Sex Fiend and the whole death-rock / gothabilly thing. The Cramps' "Surfin' Dead" - where do you put that? Gothabilly-punk-surf-rock? And where does EMO stop and Goth start? Would the Smiths be considered "EMO" now?

Musical hairsplitting makes my head hurt. That's why I don't write or read music reviews.

As I'm wont to point out, "Country" and "Western" are two different things, like "Goth" and "Industrial". They get lumped together so often and there is significant overlap, but they are still two different things.

I tend to actually like a *lot* of country music, which is closely related to Irish and Scottish folk music. It wouldn't be incorrect to call Great Big Sea  "Country".

"Western" on the other hand I generally dislike, with exceptions like like some Johnny Cash and Hank Williams Sr.. Most of it is that whiney, twangy, "my wife ran off with my mechanic and used my pick-up to do it" shite.

And then there is The Blues Brothers singing "Rawhide" ... ;)

Yeah I went and saw COF, it was fucking awesome...

Though happen to come from Victoria, so I was just visiting Van for the show.

I agree with you guys completely. I am of the opi-onion that being an individual is a very important "goth" ideal. I can be caught listening to the radio, or to something a little more obscure...and of course with all this wonderful technology we can look into styles of music that were harder to come by before.

...and right on with the 20's & 30's's so old it's new again!


I agree... I love every type of music (including classical, hip-hop, and jazz) I'm even planning on being an opera singer. So let's just feel sorry for those who are not as lucky as us to have an open mind...

I don't really listen to any music that one would classify as "goth"...  at least not on a regular basis.  There are always going to be people who are pig-headed and close-minded and think that to be goth that you have to stay in the goth box.  However, these people who insist that you conform to the "enlightened (and exclusive) way of the goth" are the same people who, as the hypocrites they are, will spout the most hateful thing about conformists in any other part of society.  I say shrug it off, put some jazz in the CD player and drive away.

> when i've talked about some of my 70's punk rock bands i love they let lose

Then they are pure idiots that don't have a clue where goth started. I was around in the 70's and a rotten little punk. The original goth groups like Siouxsie and the Banshees, The (Easy) Cure, the Smiths and others came right out of the same East London music scene as The Sex Pistols. In the beginning, circa 1977-1980 punk and goth were one-and-the-same. The term "Goth" didn't really come into play until the mid-1980's when the British music press made it up, and prior to that the terms "Gloom Punks" or "Gloom Rockers" were pretty much the standards.

Anyone that says you can only listen to X to be properly Y is IMHO an assmunch. I'm deeply fond of 1920's-1940's jazz,  18th and 19th century classical, 1970's punk, 1980's industrial, late 1960's/early 1970's acid rock, and plenty of other things.

There is no "should". Someone who spouts off about what you "should" listen to needs to stop and think for a second. If we all did what someone else thought we "should" do we'd all be aiming for 2.5 kids, a dog, a mortgage in the suburbs, et al. and there wouldn't be any subcultures at all.

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