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Christians and Homosexuality

Trixy's picture

I just got out of my Bible class, and I am less than pleased with a lot of the other students in there.  We are doing our closing unit on morals and ethics, and have been discussing grace and forgiveness.  In the video series we have been looking at, the man, Philip Yancy, talks about a friend of his who, after 35 years, came out of the closet and admitted to being a homosexual.  He is, despite that, and Evangelical Christian, and is shunned by both other homosexuals and other Evangelicals because of it.

After watching the movie, we entered into a class discussion about homosexuality, and how we, as Christians, should address it, and act around people who are homosexuals.  The very first point that was raised waas that a person cannot be gay and a Christian.  That is exactly the mentality that is giving Christians a bad name in today's society!

I made a few points:

[list]

[*]Every sin is the same in the eyes of God.  Me telling a white lie, and my neighbour endulging in homosexual acts are the same to him.

[*]With the way much of the world still looks at homosexuality, very few people would choose to live their lives under such persecution.  Yes, it is becoming more and more acceptable, but there is still a very negative outlook on homosexuality by a lot of people.

[*]There is some studies that hint at a difference in brain functions of heterosexuals as compared to homosexuals (however newer studies have shown that there is no evidence that the difference in chemical and hormone levels in the brain come before the homosexual activity.  These new studies suggest that, perhaps, the differences in levels come as a result of such activity).

[*]Christians are called to love people, despite their sin.  Too often we condemn a person outright because of their sin, or look down at them because of it.  However, like the story in the Bible (Whoever is without sin, cast the first stone), none of us are blameless, and we need to look at ourselves before we start condemning others.

[/list]

This got me a lot of dirty looks, and people in my class actually, outright, said I was stupid.  More than ever I am beginning to see why the rest of the world looks at Christians the way they do.  Even I am disgusted with the actions and thoughts of people in my school.  We talk about love, forgiveness, grace and acceptance, but all we give is hatred and condemnation.  We tell the woman who had an abortion she is a murderer, the divorcee that they are no better than an adulterer, and the homosexual that he is an adomination.  What is wrong with this picture?

Anyone reading this, Christians and non-Christians alike, we need to start living our lives with the idea in our minds that we will be forgiven the same as we forgive others.  How can we expect grace and forgiveness if we do not give it?  Treat others as you want to be treated (and to the other believers reading this, treat others as if they are Christ).

That was some powerful words you said, kry-luffs-yoo.

I wish the same thing.

I wish that people could look past their hate and just see it as it is.

"Love".

This is all about "normal" people not liking who others fall in love with.

Personally, idon't belive its right, but i cant condemn them for this.

Why? Because its human nature to hate things we dont understand.

We are all guilty of this.

All we can do is go against our own nature and learn to love people for who they are.

I mean, isnt that what religion in general's all about?!

I have a question. We'll first I'll state my oppinion. I am a lesbian and I am a Roman Catholic as well. I have liked girls since I was a child. I tried to like boys and I can't. I even prayed to be into them and not girls. But finally I came to accept myself. God answered my prayers and comforted me. I know he has because I was crying and when I prayed i stopped and everything. Also I agree with the first post. Every sin is equal and so many people shun people like me. We are all sinners. So they have no right to do that. Many people don't see that though. And I forgive everyone though. even the homophobics who have hurt me. But anyway here's my question. What about hermaphrodites? I mean no matter what they are shunned by closed minded people for being homosexual. But people who are hernaphrodites are definitely born that way. I mean a person born with both the genitals of a man and of a woman aren't allowed to love?! because of what they are born as?! I mean my friend knew a person who was one and I mean they are nice people. But do people really think they aren't allowed to love a regular male or a regular female because they have the same sexual organ as both? I'm trying to make this as clear as I can. Sorry if it's hard to understand. What I'm saying is they're gay and yes there is surgery to remove one of the organs but a lot of hermaphrodites don't think it's right to remove one of their sexual organs. Some believe that would be like taking away something the Lord has given them for a special purpose. Yet if a hermaphrodite loves a man they are called a dirty homosexual because they too have a penis but a vagina as well. same thing if a hermaphrodite loves a woman. I dbelieve God made me a lesbian for a reason. I am not exactly sure why but I feel it has given me a better understanding of people's differences. I would never force someone to be a homosexual either. And I think it's mean that some people are forcing people to be straight. Especially through violence. It's not that I hate men. i don't. Not at all. I have many male friends and I love everyone. Even my enemies. But I cannot fall in love with a man. And like I said i have prayed about it and I know the Lord loves me no matter what and that he accepts me as I am. I just wish everyone was more accepting.

This is an excellent discussion.

And if I had more brain power right now I would give some useful commentary.

Unfortunately at the moment all I can muster is to say that I agree with a lot of the points made here, and I'll be back.

Hi There, I just thought that I would cherp in on this discussion since it is based on writings from my Scriptures. While I understand that this discourse is dealing with Christianity and Homosexuality, I thought I would add a few things in about Judaisms perspective on it.

"Leviticus 18:22:

"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death." "

This does not say that being homosexual (having inclinations and feelings is bad or wrong. It is seen at most as very unfortunate, actions on the other hand are much more important than feelings.

"Author's Note: Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied.  The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship."

This guy doesn't know what he is talking about, it is in reference to all people. It has nothing to do with pagan fertility rituals. While he is somewhat correct about the use of the term abomination, it was a seriouse offense for something to be deemed an abomination.

Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals. 

"Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus."

Yes they do.

"Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination.""

Well they are and no Jew who cares about the religion eats any of these things, more over, we pay a premium for products which have special markings on them see http://www.mk.ca/common.php?p_sess=3fe3ff544c6597e06bee1f6ba... for a list of kosher marks.

" Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean."  You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others. "

Actually it is only one certain type of Locust.

"Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?"

No, nobody who is a Christian does, but Jews do, it falls under the heading of Family Purity. Though without a Temple we are unable to make sacrefices/offerings.

"detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day"

It is a pain in the ass not using electricity (creating a flame/constructing something new (creating a complete circuit) but it has many nice elements to it as well, lots of family oriented stuff.

"...and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. "

No Temple so those are unable to be done, in their place we have a very organized set of prayers.

"Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period.  "

Not to mention being able to even sleep in the same bed as her during that time and then 5 days after she has stopped spotting, and after that, she he to go to a Mikvah, ritual bath before they can return to living as a husband and wife.

"Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of  various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field"

Jewish Farmers don't do that

"or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." "

Only sort of correct, one can wear a garment made of two different kinds of material mixed together, what we can not wear is a garment made of both Linen and Wool. Or even more specifically, only the High Priest of the Jews may wear a garment of both Linen and Wool, no other Jews may. I have a special testing kit that I use on my suite jackets to see if they have Shatnes( the fabric mixing) in it or not.

"Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." "

Incorrect completely, It says that a MAN (a woman may) use a Razor to shave his head, however, he may cut his hair short provided he leaves his side locks, similarly he may cut his beard just not use a razor to do so, this means the sciccors are ok.

"The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." "

Save for Holocaust survivors, a Jew is not allowed to be buried in a Jewish Cemetary with Tattoos.

"Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others."

Absolutely. So, while gay sex is an abomination so is eating oysters or desecrating Shabbat. All capital crimes in the time of the San Hedren (Jewish court of 70 Judges which no longer exists) and in the time of the Temple.

"Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials?"

Orthodox Jews do, in Israel forinstance bus stops have been set on fire if they have adds with immodestly dressed women on them. As for the Clothing store, nothing is wrong with cotten polyester blends, I have a number of shirts which even have that. It is just the wool and linen and nothing else.

Ok, so that is enough from me, I will sit back down then.

I  would hate to hear them compain about their hardships and  strife because they are luckier than they know.  To come out as a christian is a noble and brave act. The person in the video prolly had a really hard life.  Only wanting to fit in. The kids mocking him in you're class will never experience anything as hard as what the guy in the video has experienced. 

"How can we expect grace and forgiveness if we do not give it?" this shouldnt even be an issue.  Good point!

Actually you are wrong. We believe that original sin didn't just corrupt human kind, but also the Creation. That's why there are earthquakes and other natural disasters that kill people. That's why viruses exist, and that's why animals suffered a deviation.

As a catholic I consider homosexualism to be wrong. No matter what excuse you have it's still wrong. Anything done that tries to imitate the natural human relation is impoverishing to the human race. It's not natural.

Unfortunately for your dogma, there is a great deal of empircal study demonstrating that homosexuality is quite natural and occurs naturally in a wide range of animals other than humans. As a Christian to claim it is simply wrong means that you must either:[list]

[*]reject Genesis chapters 2 and 3 where the knowlege of good and evil is the result of Original Sin to accept that the animals created by God for man to have dominion over (Genesis 1:24-29) also have the knowledge of sin and chose to be homosexual,

[*]reject that God created all the animals both within Eden (Genesis 2:19) and outside (Genesis 1:24) and that observations of His animals are observations of his natural creation.

[/list]

Catholic dogma is based largely in homosexuality being the result of Original Sin, but in no way addresses homosexual behaviour in animals, which should not be tainted by Original Sin. In fact, as far as I know, there is no ex cathedra mandate on homosexuality, that the Church's current position on the morality of homosexuality is a matter of doctrine not subject to Papal Infallibility.

All you have is an opinion.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials?  All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus.  When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

Likely because this would simply get them labeled as nut-jobs in general, as opposed to simply being called right-wing nut-jobs by the left.  Public appearance is everything ;-)

You do make some excellent points -- really, much of the Bible is open to interpretation... and therein lies the crux of this (and many other pseudo-religious) issues.  People will see what they want (or need) to see in scripture -- in the end, there will never be a "global consensus"... we just need to respect the differences in each other.

As a catholic I consider homosexualism to be wrong. No matter what excuse you have it's still wrong. Anything done that tries to imitate the natural human relation is impoverishing to the human race. It's not natural.

I've been meaning to put together a thoughtful reply to this thread for a while but simply haven't had the time to through my Bible and pull together the citations. Fortunately I came across this page today ( http://www.truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html ) where it has been done for me.

A small excerpt:

Leviticus 18:22:

"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Author's Note: Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied.  The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.

Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals. 

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians.  Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination."  Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean."  You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions.  Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period.  Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of  various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together."  Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself."  Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials?  All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus.  When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics? 

Coming from a family that managed to cross Judaism with Christianity, I am often more than a little confused by religious beliefs  :o  However, one thing I am not confused over is my personal conviction that many individuals participating in "organized religion" often lose sight of (what I see as) a few key points:

1) we are all flawed... yes, even people who have a deep understanding of the religion of their choice

2) we really ought not judge others... see point #1 for the reason why

3) our decisions are our own, to be handled within the framework of our own sense of morality and ethics

Now, in pointing this out I am not suggesting I am perfect... I have certainly made some pretty harsh conclusions about others throughout the course of my life (although I try not to do this).  However, I have always felt that the best way to represent ANY religion is to demonstrate a quiet commitment to one's "faith of choice".